F1-1955 MB W196 conversion.

[Navigator]

Hi guys,

For private use, I started to convert the W196 car. It's a nice car and I thought I'd give it a go and asked for permission to publish (when finished of course).
That is pending at the moment.......thats why I posted here; not public. If not my best thought, please replace.

Anyway; I asked Nikos as he drove these things if he would test. He told me to ask here on the forum too.
Here I am
I just put in in the game, made some .tgm files and that's not right in one go of course.
As this mod was a HoF; I would like to do justice to the original but I can't get rF1 working on my system.
But before I get to the flex-chassis, new engine model and such; I need to know if the base is good. Does it drive like it should? Than I can go on and maybe one day the could even be a fun event with it; you may never know.

Its a smal mod at the moment, 22mb.
Who is willing to give it a spin and give some thoughts of how it drives?

Please let me know and I send you a link.
Thanks in advance!


Changelog V0.23

Chassis: implemented new flex-chassis
Steering: new steering model with “double calculated angles” should give more feel and heavier steering
Sound: volume idle up, “roar” from 5000 rpm upwards should be more noticeable
added windrush, transmission sound and brake hiss
Engine: new engine model implemented; should give the “double torque high” from 5000 rpm up and peak at 6400/8100 rpm
Brakes: cold- or to hot brakes now should significantly lower the brake torque
Tires: not much change, just a bit for balance. Please try out the two compounds and never mind the “hard” or “soft” as they are just two different kinds with no regards to hardness

Note that there are no “Fixed” lines in here; conversion is in progress and I am working towards the point where you guys say: “that’s it!”.


A few screens:

[sdancourt]

I m IN

[gorgias1976]

I'll have some time for testing today as wife will be coming late from work. I will do the final practice in the BT44 at Brianza, prepare the announcement and then I can do some practice in the MB.

I won't be able to tell if it drives as it did in real life, but I can give my feelings about how it feels on track.

[gorgias1976]

Should it drive like this?

[youtube]_rZytHf-IrM[/youtube]

[Jonrarit]

Cameramen were pretty brave in those days too ....either that or they went through a lot of them

[Navigator]

Okay, thans guys.



This is it; does it behave like you would expect from this car? Does it drive like the rF1 did?
Those are the main questions so I can get it as close to that as possible and develop physics.

After converting, suspension has a tendency to be off. The complete different tires don't help either; that were .tbc files and now have to be .tgm; completely different and I have no illusion of that being spot on in one try.

Hope you have fun!

[Harri Mac]

I'll give it a go too but have no idea how it's supposed to handle so I have no reference point.

[Navigator]

Thats no problem Harri, just give your thoughts on what you think it should drive and such.

Thanks for testing all!

@ Gorgias; I can't play or even see what you posted for some reason, but I'm pretty curious right now

[gorgias1976]

Thats no problem Harri, just give your thoughts on what you think it should drive and such.

Thanks for testing all!

@ Gorgias; I can't play or even see what you posted for some reason, but I'm pretty curious right now

It's an onboard video from Fangio testing. In the video you can feel the time taken to change gears (mainly downshifting), the handling of the car, the way it oversteers a couple of times when he goes hard on the throttle at the exit of a couple of corners,....

[Navigator]

Ah, nice! I go and have a look for that!

Now another problem......
This car has a weight of 730 KG and the revs go up to 8800.
I found this page: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/spec/2051...liner.html
It says: 830 KG and 9500 rpm.

Sowwwww.......what should I do? Is this info reliable? And what info is?
Anyone an opinion on this?

[sdancourt]

I think this car still raced under the 750 Kg Formula. I found a web site that says is had 257 HP@8250 rpm.

Weight must be 750 Kg. Remember the tale about the unpainted bodies and the name Silver Arrows.

[1959nikos]

Look at these specs Wim
http://www.conceptcarz.com/s24947/Merced...-W196.aspx

You were looking at a bit different car, the streamlined version.

[Navigator]

Hmm.....my proposal is this: as the original mod, the site I found and this last link all say 290 BHP; I keep that one. (Sorry SDancourt)

The last link also states 830/5 Kg of car.....second site saying that whilst the original mod had 730.
Ehhhhhh.........I don't know?

[gorgias1976]

First impressions:
The engine feels too aggresive at higher revs.
When on throttle the engine feels very low torqued until it reaches 5000-6000rpm when you suddenly get a sudden punch and get's rather difficult to control the rear.
When braking you get the same. Engine gets too much torque having the car waving fighting it.
I don't know how the cars drove in that era, so I can only tell how I've felt it in my test.

Also the steering felt too soft, compared at least to the BT44 I had just been driving. In this cars I expected the steering to feel a lot stiffer (no power steering in that era?).

[1959nikos]

First impressions:
The engine feels too aggresive at higher revs.
When on throttle the engine feels very low torqued until it reaches 5000-6000rpm when you suddenly get a sudden punch and get's rather difficult to control the rear.
When braking you get the same. Engine gets too much torque having the car waving fighting it.
I don't know how the cars drove in that era, so I can only tell how I've felt it in my test.

Also the steering felt too soft, compared at least to the BT44 I had just been driving. In this cars I expected the steering to feel a lot stiffer (no power steering in that era?).

Ive driven cars with no power steering, I bet some others here have too.

What happens is that steering is very heavy while parking but it gets quite light on the moove, and very light if wheel is large like this car.
Remember too that the Brabham has smaller wheel and thicker tyres, I bet thats why steering feels heavier because neither the BT44 has power steering.
Perhaps a bit heavier though would suit the car.

Engine is 8cyl so I bet it was peaky and free revving, what I object is, as I said to Wim, is oversteer when you lift gass pedal at speed, that should not happen in a front engined car.

Sure we dont know how these beasts drove, just guessing.

[DJCruicky]

Wow Wim,
What a great mod. You have out done yourself on this one .

I've tried a few History mods this week. The F5000 and the F1 1975 mod (not to be confused with the BT44 mod), and thought they all bloody hard. Yours is no different. Yours is hard but fun at the same time.

I took it around Sebring. I had to mess with the seat position and FOV for a bit. The default setting had the camera behind the seat or something. The little steering lock almost had me in the wall exiting the pit .
Took a number of laps to get used to the car but started doing laps without spinning, finding how much of my right foot I needed to press without them skinny tyres loosing grip.
Liked the animated gear box in the cockpit. That is a nice touch. Liked how the driver leans to one side as they go around a corner.


No horn button , so had to delete the mod, sorry.

Well done .

[Navigator]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

But aiii, I knew that steering was going to bite me.......right in the ass, 6 times!
The original maker stated already that it was very hard to get some decent feel in the wheel.......
You know what happens after converting? It gets lighter.
You know what happens when making a flex-chassis? It gets lighter.
You know what happens when you put the new steering system in? It gets waaaaaay lighter

So, I did some work upfront, making the new chassis, new steering system and here I am; steering the car by blowing at the wheel.........

I've got some work to do
Hopefully tomorrow, I have another update.

All agree on the engine being low torqued? I will adjust.

@Nikos; have you tried V0.21? You had 0.20 first; the oversteer should be less in the newer one.

[gorgias1976]

I also agree in camera position/FOV. You seem as if being way too far from the wheel.

I've found this interesting reading
https://www.mbca.org/star-article/july-a...ng-auction

About the engine:

The W196 power curve is extremely steep to a sharp peak at 290 brake horsepower and 8,500 rpm. There’s not much torque until 5,000 rpm; the first torque peak is at 6,400 and there’s a second wind at 8,100. The straight-8 pulls smoothly to 5,000, when it suddenly comes alive with the hollow, booming roar that marks these cars – like two Porsche Spyders sounding off at once. It’s not deafening, but it does induce a ringing in the right ear. I only took the engine to about 7,000 rpm, enough to get the full, sensual surge of that first leap of torque. It moves out – and right now.

Engine throttle response was startling. A jab at the pedal for a downshift brings an instant, eager response that overdoes it until you learn to match dosage to need. This is a key advantage of fuel injection on a racing engine, as throttle response can be a problem with multiple big Venturi carburetors. I went full bore to 7,000 in third, fourth and fifth around the test track, perhaps 120 mph with the low gearing and small back tires fitted.

Steering:

It was only possible to probe the han­dling on two turns – one long, tight right and one fast left-hander – but it was obvious that the 00006/54 was an amazingly easy and safe car to drive. It wasn’t just a case of being “forgiving,” of allowing you to rescue yourself with ease; the W196 felt quite capable of handling the rescue all by itself. When I entered the tighter closing turn a hair too fast, the tail swung automatically out, as if to say, “Okay, now make the correction like I told you and you’re in business” – in German, of course.
Exactly as chassis designer Ludwig Kraus had intended, steady cornering speeds provoked gentle understeer. Apply power and the tail shifts easily outward toward balanced neutrality; more power brings oversteer in an unbroken progression. The entire spectrum of handling was easily accessible. Steering was light yet highly informative, with a way of instilling confidence. At 2.5 turns lock to lock, it was fast enough to cope with the car’s very progressive motions – a product of a high polar moment of inertia.

Brakes:

When I started out, the brakes were cold. When I first applied them, I was sure I was headed for the bulrushes. They began to warm up, however, and soon were answering the pedal with smooth, strong deceleration. Braking is aided by a hydraulic servo developed by ATE for truck use, fitted for the first time to the SLR in 1955.

[Navigator]

Wow Gorgias, thats VERY informative!!

I start working on the 2,5 rotation tomorrow; I got the steering heavier and with more "feel" in it, but had to guess the rotation; I did 2,0......... No problem, should be a small fix.
I did the new steering model with "double angle" for "more precise steering" (ISI). It listens very well now.

I havent worked on the brakes yet, but that is something that can be well implemented; cold brakes scaring the crap out of the driver

About the engine:
there is not much torque until 5000 rpm; thats okay, you mentioned the same.
But this is what I don't get: two peaks: 6400 and 8100 rpm, but he says "The straight-8 pulls smoothly to 5,000, when it suddenly comes alive".
So......when should it begin?

Meanwhile, I implemented the new engine model btw. Will be in tomorrows update; I try and put the new torque line in.

Thanks mate!


EDIT:

Made the steering do 2,5 turns and made the engine with a double peak.
Last one was hard; torque is about 247@6100 but in order to get 290bhp@8500rpm: the torque has to be around 248 at that rpm too. I can't "double peak" without having a small dip first..... As rpm go up; the bhp still go up so you won't feel much of the dip.
At 5000rpm, I turned the volume up of the sound file that starts playing at that rpm in order to get the feeling a bit better too and as described in your quotes.

[sdancourt]

Amazing job Wim!